G-seat BrassEm version

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G-seat BrassEm version

Postby BrassEm » Sun 25. Oct 2015, 09:57

PART ONE: Building and testing the electromechanicals.


I am very deeply inspired by the Bergison G-seat and what it achieves. He proved it could be done and very gratefull that he showed us how.

So after much testing on single units it is time to build my G-seat version proper.

This is the second stage where I am building everything on breadboards to actual size and testing them. Once it's all working as expected then I can design and build the final version without a hitch :lol:

The seat base actuators and belt tensioners.

Making sure the crank arms don't crash.

The seat back actuators and belt tensioners.

Also testing out a Force Feedback controller build using the G-seat controller breadboard. The proposed pitch control column geared up to dc motor with arduino and XPID. This is still a first stage test bed.

Many many thanks to Chris, and of course to X-Sim for even making this possible!

UPDATE: 2nd November 2015.

I am still waiting on parts to fire up this second stage build. The feedback pots are coupled to the pulleys and there is considerable slop in the mechanics so I know that this is going to be a problem. The rod end bearings used are the cause of the slop and were replaced with M8 ball and socket rod ends. MUCH BETTER! I may still need to couple the feedback pots to the motor crank shaft but it is so much better now. The only slight knock is the 22mm pulley bearings in the brackets. This should be fixed with some loctite.


The back seat flaps will be actuated via the pulley through the motor base board. (The motors facing out from the seat.) The pulley brackets were re-adjusted to make way for the change. The base seat flaps will still be actuated upwards from the motor base board.


Manually torquing up the pulleys, the 16mm chipboard is flexing so thick MDF for the motor mounts.

I wanted to fit LED indicators to show the state of the motor drives for second and final stage testing. This was a green drive enabled and a red drive disabled LED. Normally you need two types of transistor to easily switch the two LEDs, but I only had a stack of one type which were going to be used for a single state LED. This was breadboarded and worked well. R3 and R4 values need to be adjusted depending on the LEDs you use of course.


The veroboard wiring for a single switch channel.

UPDATE Wednesday, 4th November 2015

After looking at the Bergison video again while waiting for time to work on this. I now realise that the pivot points I've used are around the wrong way. Pushing out on the body rather than falling away on it :roll: . Time to re-calculate the pivot points and adjust everything accordingly. That is why it is breadboarded!!! Another full weekend ahead.

UPDATE Sunday, 8th November 2015

Finally got the interconnect board wired in and working. Just need to connect up the motors and feedback pots then the fun begins. Doing much more study on the pivot points on the seat flaps. Just need to make sure there is "loft" in the seat base flaps. I am confident the back seat flaps are good.


UPDATE Monday, 16th November 2015

After double checking the wiring I was able to adjust X-PID on the designated Left seat flap motor controller without much hassle. Very happy with the response (under no load yet of course).

Settings for tight control with very little overshoot on large moves (none on short) and no oscillations
PWM frequency 31250Hz
P = 2.0 to 2.1
I = 0.2
D = 0.2
PWM Power Offset = 2%
PWM Power Maximum = 100%

UPDATE Saturday, 21st November 2015.

More wiring and allocated the motor controllers to their respective seat flaps.

I've investigated further about the limit switches to prevent damage to the seat. I devised a potentiometer range clipping circuit on a breadboard based on the LMC6482 rail to rail op amp. After testing I was able to adjust the pot from 280° to 90° FSD with full linear range. This should be enough to prevent a physical crash and still get full dynamic range of the pot. X-PID values will need to be rechecked.

The veroboard wiring of the clipping board.

UPDATE Saturday, 28th November 2015

I found that there was a wire not connected onto pin 5 of the op amp on the veroboard layout while soldering the board up. Also it was impossible to solder the circuit using veroboard with so many jumper leads. So I bit the bullet and drew up a PCB layout to be etched. The 10 turn long pots have better resolution than the short vertical 25 turn trim pots but I've included them both in the PCB layout. After rethinking the layout I will also need these boards for my force feedback controllers so I've added the +5/GND to the output connectors and also made a PCB version with just the two feedback pots. PDF's will be available once I find a file host. Just another weeks delay again while I get this etched and get replacement parts, :roll: I will desolder the fitted parts later...

UPDATE Saturday, 5th December 2015


Took the SU-27 for a fly in DCS World and it was great to see the seat actuators working on the breadboards.

The pot trimmer board works great as installed. The limit is around 40° travel so I will revisit the gain values for the force feeback controllers to get them to at least 30°.

Time to start delving into the final setup parameters... (The ground roll looks a shocker, Cessna on a padock yes, Jet fighter on runway, I don't have any experience with that.)

UPDATE Monday, 14th December 2015

I am having some setting issues with the X-PID setup for the motors. Cycling from 30% to 70% and looking at the response with a scope, a gain of 1.0 gives no overshoot. Anything more overshoots. There is still a slop of about 5% feedback as read on screen using 1% increments in position. Upping the derivative to around 1.6 and adding 0.3 integral gets it so that there is no slop. (Any more integral breaks into oscillation.) However it takes about a second for the response to settle even for a 1% change. (Gains 1.0, 0.3, 1.6 and at 3.6Khz for the power. Noisy!)

Cycling the command in game at these gains produces a bumpy acceleration and a bumpy on change of direction. (Using the in game values to set the max and min values.)

Reducing the gains way back down I get a smooth acceleration in game but it is still a bumpy change of direction. (Iv'e just read the hint about using a joystick command so I will try that rather than in game.) (Gains 0.6, 0.1, 0.1)

Also I have not included a spike filter yet into the math, so that will most likely help. I am using the scalar of *1000 to the values sent from DCS via export.lua. I will try 100 and 10 to see if this helps. Adjusting the G-Force min-max values accordingly. (At least with the DCS Extractor display will be more readable.) The back seat flaps are being built up for testing and already showing that there is an issue with the angle limits of the ball sockets on the linkages. And that the 3mm low carbon steel sheet used in the motor brackets is way too flexible once the motor and the belt pulley is attached. I am now thinking 10mm for these brackets to get rid of any flexing.

UPDATE Tuesday, 15th December 2015

After more reading I found that X-PID should be running at 115200 instead of 9600 (Non ftdi Uno R3's). That is definitely going to help. I'm also configuring the test breadboard for both the seat back flaps as these have all three forces on them (Accel.x, Accel.y, Accel.z). This will be getting closer to the final hardware configuration.

If there was a wrong way to wire the motors and pots... In the new layout got everthing all going the one way - the wrong way. Had to change polarity of the pots and motors so now the seat flaps move in the right direction. (Doing an invert in the math did not help.) The photo shows the flaps at the 1G position. The minimum -3G's will flatten the flaps while 9G's will draw them fully back. Note that this is the view looking up through the seat, with reference to the Basic Configuration diagram. That is as far as I got so it will be gains tomorrow.

UPDATE Wednesday, 16th December 2015

Reverted back to the eyelet type bearings for the seat flaps as these give more angle without crashing the sides.

3-4mm spacers between the bearing give the clearance on the pushrod so there is no crashing. It also stops rattle. The 8mm bolt through the inner bearing race is sloppy causing rattle. Epoxy will be used to stop this.

Set the X-PID arduinos to 115200. Used a joystick throttle input as a command to the seat flaps - A brilliant option with the software! Now I can determine the output behaviour so much better with manual control of the input via moving the throttle. The smooth math filter really smoothed all the bumps out, the only problem was response was way too slow. Playing with the spike filter and gains is starting to yeild some results.

Unfortunately the motor crank arm is attached to the actuators by two nuts wedging together and tends to break free too easily. I will now be concentrating on an E-STOP/LIMIT Switch for the motors so that I can connect everything up solid without fear of crashing. For the Elechouse 50A motor boards that means both motor outputs need to be high to lock the motor in position. (Dropping DRIVE ENABLE still lets the motor coast into a crash so that is not an option). I am hoping a simple mod to the arduino code will work. The actual active E-STOP/Limits switching will be tricky.

UPDATE Saturday, 19th December 2015

This is the current configuration on the actuator arms where the M8 nuts clamp onto it.

If only got a P of 0.6 and a hefty spike filter in to boot to get smooth operation. The fidelity appears to be not so good yet.

The limit switch sensing modification to X-PID program worked well. Now when there is an open circuit or failure anywhere in the motor limits sense circuit the motors all get locked into a braked position without coasting thus preventing damage. The motor limits sensing circuit is breadboarded and is located where the 4 blue leds are. The actual motor position sensing circuit for each motor has not been built yet so that is next on the agenda.

I am using a GF-TQ6 throttle to manually command the movement of the flaps. The response on the Back Right is better than the Back Left. Looks like I have to turn the Back Right Motor around again to match

UPDATE Wednesday, 24th December 2015

I've got the Motor Limit switch sensing circuit working on a breadboard. I've used an opto interrupter circuit to trigger a limit condition to send to the Arduino to brake the motors. Like all EMERGENCY STOP circuits, this need to be active (Voltage) to allow the motors to operate. Should there be an electronics failure or an open circuit somewhere in the wiring the motors are braked. It should be easy enough to fashion a cardboard/aluminium interrupter blade to attach to the motor actuator arm. I just need to trim it down so as soon as the arm gets to a bad position the opto is unbroken.

I have designed the PCB layout for the 4 PCB's for the motor limit switchs (one for each motor). And also the limit switch interface board that they will all plug into. (The interface board is wired up to the Arduinos.) Due to the Christmas break my manufacturing capacity is limited and this is a show stopper for the moment. I can do the seat base test flaps like the back seat test flaps so that will be next.

UPDATE Sunday, 27th December 2015

After looking at the repositioning of the motor on the back seat flap to match motor direction response, it aint going to happen just yet. I need to look at how the seat base flaps are going to work for now.

The seat base test flaps have been started. The test breadboard was chopped and fitted to duplicate the pivots like the seat back. Whether this is right or wrong remains to be seen.

Fitting the spaces to the seat base actuators like the seat back actuators.

Setting the push rod length for the seat base actuators. This is a preliminary adjustment and will be refined once the motion control has been tested (just like the seat back flaps). With this setup I am hoping to reinforce it and build it to actually test real loads.

UPDATE Monday, 28th December 2015

Finally got all four seat flaps working together. I have gone for 9 to -3 G's for the full range of movement. I may need to go to 6 to -2 G's to get the appropriate force sensation from the seat. I will be getting some real flying time in to make sure that the seat responds truely.

The motor responses need more work. Still lumpy and sluggish. I am not sure whether it is resolution related or not. I need to send a mathematically calculated commands to the motors to check their dynamics. I will investigate the software further or I may need to write some routines myself to send.

Anyways here it is working with a joystick as a command input to all the motors.

UPDATE Sunday, 10th January 2016

The Limit switch boards have been designed and built. An opto interrupted board will close a relay when the motor is in a good position, one for each seat flap motor position. These are strung together so as a short circuit to the interface board. On a short circuit the interface board sends a good signal to the arduinos and the motors are commanded. Any out of position or break in wiring will cause a bad signal where the arduinos will lock all the motors. The optical masks are being laser cut out of 2mm black acrylic after being drawn up in CorelDraw once the angles and dimensions were calculated.

The new Limit Switch Interface board has been temporarily fitted and wired in (top right on the power supply chassis). The Feedback board is just to the lower left of it. The Motor Drive Enable board sits between the Arduino's and the Elechouse 50Amp motor driver boards. G-Seat MKII will have these board incorporated into a single board which sould reduce the number of connectors required down to about 10. The interconnecting cables are still being wired up. All going well next weekend should be a fully coupled test and then down to the nitty gritty of perfecting the PID.

UPDATE Monday, 11th January 2016

The limit switch circuits wired in and working. The blue LED's showing all 4 motor positions good in this test setup thanks to some chopped up icy pole sticks in the interrupters. The opto boards can now go onto the motor bread boards properly and once the masks are fitted to the motor crank arms, I can start testing without fear of a motor crash.

UPDATE Wednesday, 13th January 2016

Fitted some opto masks on the seat base motors and wired the back seat opto's in. Works very well. Slightest loss and ALL motors stop instantly. The pushrods can now be properly connected. (Photos and docs to follow.) Now I can finally concentrate on getting this PID sorted. Still lumpy using the GF-TQ6 throttle as an input. Maybe if I use my X-55 joystick as the command input and see what happens... Smooth as :P - DOH! dirty pot on the throttle! :evil: I am calling it at ; 31250 (Thank god for my ears) 1.5, 0.1, 0.1, 0, 100.

It is now 40°C inside the house at night and I have been cycling the motors for all they are worth for half an hour now and they are hot! Peak current visible on the meter was around 4.5amp per motor. I will add another arduino UNO purely as a motor temp sensor and wire it into the Limit Circuit. This is not a show stopper and I can finally get on with designing the G-SEAT seat at last...

UPDATE Sunday, 17th January 2016

The opto boards are being fitted with the masks and the mechanics being coupled properly.


The motor temp sensors will be epoxied to the motor bodies. One temp sensor will be free air on the inside of the seat housing. Overtemp will shut down the motors via the limit switch circuit and has an LED indication. With all the spare ports on this Arduino it will be used for the Emergency Stop button and anything else that may need to be monitored.


UPDATE Tuesday, 2nd February 2016

I need to fit all this into a Martin Baker Mk14 ejection seat replica for my project.


Many thanks to the guys over at Hornetpits.org I was able to get a handle on the dimensions I needed to assist in the build. It is going to take time to get it all together. I am just starting on the seat base layout.


UPDATE Saturday, 20nd February 2016

The electromechanicals have been tested and verified working, but because the actual seat build itself is a whole new project on its own, I will be breaking the post up into Parts. The next part being the design and build of the actual seat itself incorporating the electromechanicals.

It is getting closer...

Last edited by BrassEm on Sat 20. Feb 2016, 01:31, edited 52 times in total.
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby vicpopo » Sun 25. Oct 2015, 13:30

Hi Brass,

Looks very nice and clean !! Good job .Will follow your progress ;)
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G-seat BrassEm version - PART TWO

Postby BrassEm » Sat 20. Feb 2016, 00:55

PART TWO: Designing the seat build.


Now onto the design and build of the G-Seat. I will be attempting to build the seat around the Martin Baker NACES SJU-17X/A ejection seat design (F/A-18).
(Many thanks to Bergison, K-lu and the guys over at http://hornetpits.org/index.php for their invaluable support.)

K-lu has very generously made available a 3d model of his pit which I have used to get the details and parts correct.

The MDF that I have available is in sizes; 3, 6, 12, 16, 18, 25 and 32mm and will adjust the model to suit these. (6 and 18mm most likely).
Seat Foams will be HR36-110CM5 or HR36-200CM5 contoured accordingly.

For the first time all the mechanicals have been fitted together to the rough dimensions of the MB seat. There were ALOT of adjustment, and readjustments of the brackets and linkages to get the right flap deflection as per the breadboard testing, while making it all fit into the very limited space available in the MB seat. But it did all fit...


The tilt was adjust for the proper seat angles. Back angle is 22° but the seat pan I've put at 7° for the moment. (Possibly 8°)

Fitting the MB seat around the base mechanics requires checks, and rechecks to make sure there is not a clash.

From the advice from Bergi it is not necessary to extend the base seat flaps further than what has been designed so far. That is going to save a lot of redesign work. K-lu has used 5mm and 20mm dimensions for the MB seat, these will be changed to 6mm and 18mm so I can get these cut out via CNC. The electronics will have to be fitted and the cabling runs will need to be considered.

UPDATE Wednesday, 24th February 2016.

The HR36 foams have been incorporated into the build. The seat base required an arbitary 15mm rise from its previous lever point to lift everything to a better position. This will help secure the seat back to the base better. Due to the foibles of Sketchup the seat base cusion has segmented lines to show the curve. This will be the build for the foam base and the foam sculpted afterwards to suit long term seat comfort. Each seat segment is split to help with the compression of the foam as the seat flap folds inwards in high positive G's.

UPDATE saturday, 19th March 2016.

After some RL issues it is back onto the seat again... The upright headrest column was a challenge to accommodate the seat flap movements while retaining structural strength. Also the 50mm seat belt ways were factored in using quick clip webbing. The electronics are being fitted in some sort of logical order. This thing has to be wired up neatly and also be functional after it is built.

UPDATE Monday, 21st March 2016.

I am now happy with the back assembly. There will be more support for the back through a 12mm MDF back with a cross support. The side panels will be 6mm MDF sheets screwed in to block everything in and out. A black smoked acrylic hinged cover will go over the access cutout on the back for easy viewing and access of the electronics. The lowest Arduino is the motor temp sensor. I may need to put low noise, large volume fans in to keep the Summer temperatures down. I really have gone overboard on the electronics. You really only need the two Arduino's and the two motor controller boards for the electronics to get this thing running.

The view below shows the mechanics from the lower front. This is where the modified MSFFB2 extended joystick will sit prior to the GRUNTY force feedback system being fitted.

The quick slip 50mm webbing clips are cut and positioned (x3 left hand shoulder shown) for the seat belt ways. I may put a metal sheet over the change of belt direction radius to stop wear. The seat base only has one on the actual seat flap. I have had to modify the MB accessory parts to make way for the seat belt ways. It should not be too noticeable.

The cross section reveals most of the workings. The headrest assembly and MB accessory parts will be cobbled together with what ever I can lay my hands on. PVC pipe, MDF offcuts on the sheets, plumbing supplies etc.

And what it should look like once finished.

Now the CNC MDF sheet layouts need to be generated from the Sketchup model. Once they are layed out is will be sent and cut by a mob down here in Melbourne. After that the fun can really begin with the proper assembling and testing. I am really looking forward to that first carrier launch!!!! :D

UPDATE Saturday, 26th March 2016.

Colour coding the MDF sizes used for the build, a work in progress. Coding
brown = 3mm
red = 6mm
orange = 9mm
yellow = 12mm
green - 16mm
blue = 18mm


UPDATE Sunday, 3rd April 2016.

Added 32mm Colour coding the MDF sizes used for the build. These were needed for the headrest. Also 50, 80 and 100mm Drain Water pipes used for the Drogue chute, seat lifter and parachute harness belay. Short lengths of 40, 30 and 12mm dowel is used for the belay and Pitot tube intakes. Sheet widths have all been allocated. Now to put the cut-outs onto the sheet sizes.

UPDATE Thursday, 7th April 2016.

All parts have now been allocated to there respective layers for the CNC layout process. 1mm pilot holes have been marked for the brackets and the head rest mounting. The head rest mounting is not entirely authentic but is functional. Any errors in surface facing should have been caught and tied up some early sketchup surface foobars. It might not look like much has happened.

UPDATE Saturday, 10th April 2016.

Thanks to Alex Schreyer and his "Unwrap and Flatten Faces" extension for Sketchup. With it I was able to flatten the parts needed for the CNC G-code creation. I will need to refine the layout a little before I submit it for quotes.

UPDATE Friday, 15th April 2016.

Thanks to Lee Campbell from Allboard Distributors for his advice. This job needs to be laser cut. So requests for quotes go out again. At least this gives me time to work on the force feedback controller side of things."

UPDATE Friday, 22nd April 2016.

After many enquiries I've received some quotes. The parts are scheduled to be CNC cut over the next week or two :D . While waiting for them to be cut I can now get on with sourcing the foams for the seat. This will be an interesting challenge.

The seat-belt/parachute harness webbing is still to be finalised. Work continues on the interim beefed up MSFFB2/X-55 hybrid joystick controller.

UPDATE Friday, 13th May 2016.

Friday the 13th may be unlucky for some, but not me. I've just picked up the CNC cut of the MDF this morning - extremely impressed with the quality of the cut. Also received the foam cut a few days back. It is one big jigsaw at the moment.

I've ordered Military IOTV Expanded Mesh Fabric for the seat cushion covering and Nylon MIL-W-17337 Webbing for the belts. All the parts for the hybrid FFB joystick has been received as well and just needs to be built.


Last edited by BrassEm on Sun 17. Jul 2016, 09:05, edited 18 times in total.
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G-seat BrassEm version - PART THREE

Postby BrassEm » Mon 21. Mar 2016, 10:41

PART THREE: The actual seat build.


Update Saturday 14th May 2016

Set down the seat base on a temporary floor board with six door slide rollers and two rails. The floor board will be extended to accommodate the joystick and rudder pedals once dimensions are confirmed.

The smaller parts have been layed out for sanding and gluing.

Update Sunday 15th May 2016


Update Monday 23rd May 2016


This MDF is a sponge! After about 4 sprays and sands it is just now getting a reasonable finish on the flats. The edges are going to have to be filled with a watered down filler. I am going to hand brush a chrome yellow primer on, and buy a sander to help. This is ridiculous.

Update Saturday 5th June 2016

More filling and sanding... At least it is getting close to being done.

While K-Lu's cad design is immensly helpful, there are some details that need refining. The parachute bucket and rocket are being adjusted. The ejection sequencer is next.

The seat foams have been dyed with Rit. It took three goes before the dark green got a consistant shade while the black took one. Make sure the water is HOT. The headrest still needs to have the two main angles cut out and the trim fitted. The Military IOTV Expanded Mesh will be used as the main seat cushion overlay.

Update Saturday 12th June 2016

More filling, sanding and painting. The weather has not been good for painting on the weekends. Today was okay. Laying sprayed parts around where I can find room. Hopefully more tomorrow.

Update Saturday 17th July 2016

Finally some headway. Two weekends of assembly got me this far. Got to sit in it today and the dimensions seem pretty good. Hopefully next weekend the electromechanicals go in. And yes, still more painting black!!!


Update Sunday 24th July 2016

Only managed to fit the main control electronics. The seat is now disassembled to fit the electromechanicals. And yes, still more painting black!!!

Update Tuesday 2nd August 2016
Only had one day on the weekend to continue the build. Added some of the brackets and motors to the seat flap assemblies. The linkages will all have to be readjusted again to suit. This includes the opto interrupter Limit Switches. The power supply parts will also have to be installed before proper electrical testing can be finalised.

Side shot.

Update Friday 10th September 2016
The electromechanicals have been fitted, adjusted and work well. The seat has been jigged to do primary interface testing with the simualtion software. Once that is complete, belts will be fitted and the seat put together. Final tweaking to the software interface will then be done while actually sitting in the seat finally. The fitout to complete the SJU-17 replica is still a work in progress. The full touch screen pit layout is still to be done, but that is another project again.

Last edited by BrassEm on Sat 10. Sep 2016, 10:59, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby Bergison » Sat 23. Jul 2016, 22:33

Wow, I'm deeply impressed at your G-Seat build BrassEm! Good job! It looks WAY more professional and elaborate than mine :oops:
Just one thought: the axes on your flaps are far more to the outboard than in my build (see attached picture), did you find they give a better sensation that way? I'm just curious...
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby BrassEm » Sun 24. Jul 2016, 12:36

Thank you sir, you lead the way. I would never have achieved this without your work. The pivot points were calculated to give a bit more loft and side pressure on the higher G's. KLR Rico mentioned about having more movement a while back (Can't reference his post unfortunately). I hope I am interpretting that correctly. I am still months away from the first flight and will probably need to adjust the pivots to suit more than likely. When I finally get there I will post how it goes.
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby BrassEm » Tue 11. Apr 2017, 13:30

Finally finished most of the painting and detailing of the seat. Initial testing shows that the 3mm brackets that have used on the motors on the seat base are flexing under my full weight causing problems (the seat back is okay.) It's okay lifting my weight, but overshooting (oscillating) when lowering my weight. I will try 6mm brackets to remove the flex to see if it stops the overshoot. If not I have some heavier duty motors to fit (somehow - bigger dimensions).


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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby vicpopo » Mon 17. Apr 2017, 21:17

Impressive work and result !

Congratulations ;)
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby andywong » Thu 26. Apr 2018, 13:28

What a Great and Neat design! Please share the progress of the final result.
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Re: G-seat BrassEm version

Postby sulfail » Thu 6. Dec 2018, 17:04

I demand a video of that movement simulator, I have been impressed. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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